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As is evident from my blog postings, I am a Christian, and a baptised member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Importantly, I am a practising member. I attend church each week. Additionally, I have a responsibility in my local church to assist the full-time missionaries in their efforts to share the gospel message on the Isle of Man. What I am trying to make clear, is that I am an active member. I strongly, strongly believe the teachings of this church. Strongly (!!).
I have spent many hours of my life debating the doctrines of the church, more typically with those who merely want to attack them and try to make a mockery of them. I have read many anti-mormon articles. I am more than aware of the more common complaints/disputes regarding the church that are used by those who attack it. I am far from being an ‘apologist’, but I am a defender of the faith.
I have often criticised the position of one who merely attacks another person’s faith, however, with this post today, it may appear that I am falling into that category. I don’t wish to ‘attack’ the beliefs of another man, however, I do feel it important to address an issue here that I feel is often overlooked within the beliefs of evangelical Christians.
I am a Christian, but I do not consider myself to be an evangelical Christian. I’m not sure exactly what the term is supposed to mean anymore, but more recently, it appears to be the more fashionable name to go by. Through this posting, for the sake of simplicity, I will effectively class all other Christians who are not Mormon to be an evangelical Christian.
Through this posting, I will address two key issues that I find startling about evangelical beliefs:
- The belief that God is primarily a hateful God (more hate than love).
- The belief that God forces every man and woman into sin.
Those do sound rather startling.. and I imagine most evangelical christians would be surprised to hear me say it, but this I believe is because they have overlooked these two points that lie at the very foundation of their belief.
I will now address these two points in turn:
A God of Hate
The gospel is clear and on this point, all Christians agree, a man or woman can only return to the presence of God through the grace of Christ. Through his sacrifice. Through the atonement, by which he took upon himself the sins of the world.
We are all sinners. Our only hope is through Christ.
“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12)
The apostle Paul laid it out very clearly, and again, all Christians would agree:
“..Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?” (Romans 10:13-14)
It is clear. A man cannot call on the name of Christ if he has not believed in Christ. That man cannot believe in Christ, if he has not heard of Christ.. and that man needs someone or something to preach it to him. To share with him the message of Christ.
What happens if that man dies without accepting Christ? Evangelical Christians will tell you.. (if they are being honest) the man will go to hell. Plain and simple. No questions about it. No Christ = no salvation. No salvation = no heaven. No heaven = Hell.
Now that that is clear, let us consider the position of God in all this. Let us consider how much he hates the world, and his creations.. specifically, us humans (according to evangelical Christian beliefs).
What chance does a man have if, let’s say for example, the man is born in a Muslim country? Will the gospel of Christ be taught there? Will this man hear about Christ? You may like to think so, and in fact, in some Muslim countries, he may be afforded that opportunity, but it’s certainly fair to say that there are many many people who will not. Many people will (again for example) be born in North Nigeria, be taught about Allah, live the teachings of the Quran, and die without ever hearing the message of the gospel that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
What is the consequence for these people?… Hell. Plain and simple.. hell. An endless torment in Hell with the devil and his angels. Why? Oh, because they did not accept Christ and believe in him. They couldn’t call on his name, and sadly, they couldn’t therefore be saved.
There are many others, in fact, many millions of other people in similar circumstances. They never hear the gospel of Christ. They have no idea who he is, nor what he did for them. They have no idea that they are (according to the beliefs of evangelical Christians) headed to an eternity in hell. Ultimately, they have no hope.
God determined that they should be born where they were born. He knew that they wouldn’t be fortunate to have a preacher come and tell them about Christ their Saviour. He knew from day one, that they were lost souls. Ultimately, God created them for their destiny in hell.
This may sound a bit extreme, but evangelical Christians praise God for it, and they often quote from Romans 9:
Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Rather than putting the verses into the context of the gospel message – which is a gospel of happiness, salvation, and a loving Father in Heaven – many a pastor has delighted in quoting these verses to me to (in their minds) evidence that indeed God is a hateful God. He will condemn most of humanity to hell.. but he saves a few. I hardly think that something to boast about.
Cause of Sin
Hold on now, I’m not suggesting that the evangelical Christian beliefs put God as the cause of sin am I? Yes I am.
According to evangelical Christian beliefs, we did not exist before this life. Our existence began in the womb. Before then, we were nothing.
God however chose to create us in the womb – we had no choice in the matter, in fact we had no way of escaping it – and in that sense, he is at fault for our being born. What’s my point here? Well, according to evangelical Christian beliefs, we were born into sin.. the ‘sin of Adam’. Each of us instantly became sinners, as we took upon ourselves the sin of Adam. It goes something like this.. baby born *boom* he/she is a sinner. Instantaneously!
Even IF the baby grew up and lived a perfect, sinless life… he/she would still be a sinner. He/she would still carry the weight of the sin of Adam which he/she obtained through birth. The birth that God forced on him/her.
Now, let’s combine the two points. Let’s say in this example, that the baby was born into a Muslim home.. and point 1 above is repeated (i.e. baby grows up, and dies without hearing the gospel) it is true to say that that baby had no chance. Born to go to hell. Created for that express purpose. Wow.
The baby had not asked to be born. Not asked to be created. Not asked for the sin of Adam to be placed on his/her head. Even if the baby lived perfectly (yes, it’s impossible.. but let’s pretend), the baby was headed to hell from birth.. because of the sin of Adam – and – born into a Muslim home without opportunity to come unto Christ; had no hope at all.
(yes, I’ve repeated myself.. but for emphasis!)
These are the unfortunate doctrines at the heart of the evangelical Christian beliefs. They amaze me. They disappoint me. What do you think?
I am a Christian, but as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we understand these teachings differently. In short, we disagree. We teach of a God of love. A God who is the Father of our Spirits, and who wants the best for us. A God who will provide an opportunity for salvation – through Christ – for every man and woman who has ever lived… Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, the lot. If not in this life, then after we die.
Where? In the place where the Spirits of all men and women reside whilst awaiting their resurrection. 1 Peter 4:6 tells us:
“For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.”
I don’t wish to attack the beliefs of my fellow [evangelical] Christians. I merely wish to raise an awareness of these two key points that lie at the heart of their beliefs. Points that are often overlooked, but here, I have tried to speak plainly, that they might be understood.
Of course, evangelical Christians may dispute my words. They may say I have misunderstood, but I have not. Again, my writings are plain enough here for all to see, and dispute not.
This post is the first that I have written that is critical of evangelical Christian beliefs, however, having had many discussions over the past few weeks regarding my own salvation (evangelical Christians tell me I’m going to hell too!), I felt it necessary to explain here the problems with their claims.
They often criticise my beliefs, through everything from A-Z, from what the mormon missionary did or said, what a church apostle wrote in his own personal writings.. and more. Well, now I have responded.
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? ..You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” (Matthew 7:3 & 5)
To my evangelical Christian friends.. rather than attacking the beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, might I suggest that you first deal with your own problems?
essentialoils.im 
You are correct to say that God hates in that he hates evil by virtue of his righteousness. It is not correct to say that he is more hate than love. God’s hatred of evil is motivated by his love for himself. So his hatred of the liar and the wicked man is an extension of his love for holiness, that is, for himself. Also, God is just in the damnation of sinners. They are without excuse because they have sinned against the light that they have. Someone born in a Muslim land can’t use “I never heard the gospel” as an excuse for their having lied, coveted, etc. because these are things that all men know inherently. Also, God is not the author of sin. He willed it to enter the world in such a way that he would not be the author. It takes faith to believe that God has a good purpose in all of these things which overshadows and exceeds the evil of Sin which he ordained. God had a good purpose in the fall, and he turns the wicked actions of evil men for good purposes every day. If you can’t believe that, it’s because you lack faith in the God who revealed himself in the Bible.
Riley, I would agree that God hates evil. He hates sin. The problem however with the evangelical beliefs is the teaching that God hates the sinner; irrespective of the sin.
I’m not sure why you want to insist that Muslims have no excuse. A muslim man can do all he can to serve the God that his society has taught him about (Allah), with his best intentions. He can strive to live every teaching that the Quran has taught him about this God. He can live a life full of love, with high moral standards and respect. No lying. No cheating. No coveting. However, he will go to hell because God refused to save him. God could have made the gospel available to him, but chose not to. Instead, God is quite content to send this poor, unfortunate man to hell.
Meanwhile, in America, a man murders, he plunders, he rapes, he molests… but on his final day of life, a Pastor reminds him of the teaching of Christ that he heard as a boy. He rejected this Christ throughout his life, but now having been shot, and dying, he heeds to the Pastor’s message and shouts out to this Jesus Christ.
Now, according to evangelical beliefs, in this scenario, the Muslim will go to Hell, and the man in America will go to Heaven. Are you seriously content with that? Can you really tell me that God does not hate the Muslim?
Sin is part of life. Yes, it is absolutely unacceptable to God, and it seperates us from his presence. Salvation is in and only through the name of Christ who saves us and cleanses us of sin. But ultimately, it is part of life. God knew we would sin. It is part of our growth, our learning.
Consider this example:
Two children go on a journey. A journey that their Father made them take. Through the journey, the two children become dirty. There is mud on their shoes, and a fair bit on their clothes. At the end of the journey, as they reach the house of their Father, he says “you cannot come in looking like that, you are both filthy”. The children recognise their state and ask, “Father, how can we be made clean?” and so the Father brings out a bucket of water. He cleans one child, and refuses to clean the other. The child that has been cleaned is able to enter the house of the Father. The other cannot. He/she has been rejected. He/she has no opportunity to be made clean.
What does this tell you of the Father? Why did he refuse to clean one of his own children who pleaded to me made clean? That rejection – to cast out your own children, to deny them an opportunity to be made clean – is terrible. Such a Father should be ashamed of himself. Such a Father does not love the one whom he has rejected.
The Father is God as taught by evangelicals.
A God of hate. He despises his creations, and rather than providing an opportunity for them to be made clean, he sends them to everlasting, eternal punishment. Hell. Fire. Pain.
What’s worse, is the fact that the sin of Adam is forced onto everyone. Forced onto us all by God. It’s like a Mother giving birth to her baby into a puddle of mud. The baby is instantly dirty… and yet God refuses to clean him. That is not the fault of the baby, but the fault of God (in this scenario representing the Mother).
This is Riley, now using my wordpress account.
I want to thank you for your commitment to considerate discourse on these important matters.
On first reaction to your post, I can only say that you have a much different religion from that revealed in the Holy Bible, which is evident in nearly every statement. At first I thought that I would point out how you are contradicting the teaching of Scripture, and using its terms in novel ways. But then I remembered from past discourse with Mormons that this will probably not be very convincing for you, because when confronted with the teachings of the Holy Bible, Mormons, in my experience, always defer to the Book of Mormon and other teachings of their founders. You claim to believe the Bible, but when push comes to shove, you guys don’t have a problem with the contradictions between the Bible and your doctrines. So instead, I will just pick a couple words that you used and define them, and then offer a word of exhortation, because you really are harshly criticizing the God who created us and who gave the Holy Bible in your post above.
Sin – Sin is any lack of conformity to God’s perfect character, whether in thought, word, or action, in any degree however large or small. 1 Jn 3:4 All Sin, even the most passing thought which falls short in any way of God’s utter holiness, deserves eternal punishment in hell forever, for it is an affront and high treason against an infinitely holy God. James 2:10, Rom 6:23 This debt of punishment never goes away except in the way that God has provided, through the atonement of Christ. It’s not just something that creates a temporary or limited “separation.” It is a full, total, and eternal separation from God’s blessed presence, and the deserving of His full wrath forever. Rev 21:8 I assure you that no Muslim or any other person on earth has lived free from Sin, except for Jesus Christ the only Savior of sinners. For example, the idea that any human being ever lived an entire life without ever “coveting” in his heart is laughable. Adam was, until he fell, perfect in his ways, sin-free, which is why God said, “It is very good” after creating him.
Children of God – Children of God are first of all, Christ Jesus the only begotten Son, and secondly all those who have been adopted into His family through the love of the Father and faith in Jesus Christ. All those who have not utterly renounced their own ability to please God and put all their faith in Jesus Christ (in contrast to trusting in their own abilities, even a little bit), are outside of God’s family, are His enemies, are children of wrath, under His wrath and curse, and God is under no obligation or covenant to love them. The Bible teaches that He hates them personally for the sake of their sin, unless and until they are reconciled to Him and adopted into the family in Christ. God is at the present time offering a full pardon and the grace of adoption to all who will come to Him through Christ, confessing their complete sinfulness and utter inability to do anything to please Him of their own accord, which is why they need the Savior who is their full salvation. In this way, God is even being gracious to those who are his hated enemies, at the present time. Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, Rom 9:13, Eph 2:3; Rom 8:14, 15
Now, I realize that you do not believe in this God that I’ve described. But it’s the only God their is. You claim to believe the Bible. The Bible represents God’s final and authoritative revelation to mankind (Hebrews 1:1-2). But for the sake of argument, if there were a possibility of new revelation (which there is not), it would have to agree with the former revelation. But since you are giving the newer revelation (as you see it) priority over the older revelation, you are being led astray from the God who gave the older revelation. Try it the other way around. Test the Mormon doctrines and books using the Bible, and you will find that you do not worship the same God who revealed Himself in the Bible. It is not smart to resist this God. We are merely his creatures. You are in no position to judge His character, but only to submit or receive the punishment that you’re so obviously asking for. It’s hard to fathom the insolence that people today express regarding the God of Scripture. No matter. One day every rebellious mouth will be stopped. May the Triune God of Scripture richly bless and sovereignly save you. Rom 3:19
Hey Dan I think your understanding of the issues we raise and the issues the bible raises is great, however the concclusions you make from them are where I would disagree.
Firstly I would say that we are made for God, rather than Him existing for us, He has the right to do whatever He wants to do with us, whether thats good or bad in our eyes.
As you know you quoted the major text to support this being in Romans 9. However sadly rather than deal with this verse I would say you quickly sidestepped it by saying it dosen’t fit in with the gospel. I accept it does not fit with the LDS gospel however that text is part of the same bible you claim to believe that makes up the doctrines of your gospel. So I would still be interested to know what you feel these verses do mean? As for me they are fairly clear and do fit in well with the biblical gospel.
We see in Isaiah 43:7 7Everyone who is called by My name,
And whom I have created for My glory,
Whom I have formed, even whom I have made.”
We are created for His glory.
Jeremiah 13:11
For as the waistband clings to the waist of a man, so I made the whole household of Israel and the whole household of Judah cling to Me,’ declares the LORD, ‘that they might be for Me a people, for renown, for praise and for glory; but they did not listen.’
We are created for His glory and He has the right to do what He wills with us to that end, hence this question in Romans 9.
19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel [l]for honorable use and another [m]for common use? 22 [n]What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea,
Its worth considering why does Paul ask that question in verse 19, why does He say, why does God find fault for who resists His will?
Meaning why does God hold peoples sin against them as no one resists His choice over their salvation anyway. And then you can see the answer.
This is a God of love but a God I would say holds His own infiinite worth above all else and acts accordingly, however this God loves humanity so much that He sent His son to die for us when He could have just wiped us out, as He did with the people in the days of Noah, which is another example of this God, which as far as I know you claim to believe in also.
So God draws who He wills, this drawing is not restricted by where we are born, or what culture we are born into, many muslims have had visions of Christ and come to Him on the basis of these visions there is a site talking about it here http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/554407/posts and many more like it. God is not restricted by a lack of missionaries in an area, He has mercy on whom He has mercy and hardens whom He hardens.
Regarding babies being born that is a tough one that I cant think of a clear biblical statement on, however my God is just and as I have shown with the muslims He is not restricted by our own ways of doing things and is a just and all knowing, all understanding God. I appreciate this is the weaker part of my argument.
So anyway I would love to know your thoughts but I just wanted to challenge your conclusions a bit. Great to come across an LDS blogger in the Uk.
Riley, for some reason I am unable to reply directly to your post. In fact, rather than have an option to ‘reply’ I have an option to ‘edit’ your post.. which is even more odd. Clearly an error within wordpress here.
I will address the two points of your post, two points that we clearly disagree on:
Sin –
Your position is that all sins deserve punishment (Hell). As we are all sinners (on this point we both agree), we are all on a journey to Hell. In fact, that is what life is, according to evangelical beliefs. A journey to hell. It is only if God chooses to intervene, and save us from our sins, that the direction of our journey will change. Those whom God saves will go to Heaven, but the sad fact is, that everyone else (the vast majority) will go to Hell. You say that this is okay, because we all deserve it. But is that really the case?
Remember that the evangelical position is that we did not exist before this life, and that we were only created in the womb. No one had a choice. We were forced into existence. That existence immediately brought sin – this is something that we simply cannot avoid. It is impossible. There are all kinds of sin, and even the smallest sins will take us on our journey to hell.
The Lord said in Genesis 8:21 “I will not again curse the ground any more for man’s sake; for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.”
As even a thought of the mind that is contrary to the will of God is a sin, then it is clear to see why the Lord confirms that man is evil from his youth. What I’m trying to say, is that by nature of our existence, it is not possible to go through this life without committing sin. God knew that when he created us.
In fact, going back to my initial point, God thrust a key sin on all our heads – the ‘Sin of Adam’. So effectively, God has already made it impossible for us to return to him (unless he chooses to save us) right from birth. That one sin is enough to send us to hell (as you teach it). It is odd that God should put us all in such a state.
We both agree that sin separates us from the presence of God, but we appear to disagree on the position of God in this. See, I believe in a God of Love. I believe that he wants to save us all, in fact I believe in the scripture wherein it is said: “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16). However, I’m not sure that you do. The scripture clear says “God so loved the world”.. but your position is ‘God only loves some people’. Those people that he chooses to intervene and save, whilst being happy to allow everyone else to go to hell. This is where my example of the Muslim is key. A Muslim who has never heard of Christ, has never had an opportunity to be saved. It is a cruel God that would rather allow his creations to go to hell, than save them.
Why would God refuse to allow people an opportunity to be saved? Why does God pick and choose?
There is no escaping the matter: evangelicals believe in a God who is cruel. Who hates the world more than he loves the world. I on the other hand, believe in a God who “so loved the world”. Everyone will be given a chance to be saved.
Children –
Jesus Christ is the only “begotten” Son of God in the flesh, and in this sense, we call him the “only Son of God”. However, we are all spirit children of God. Romans 8:16 states: “The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children”.
Why else do we refer to God as our Father? The resurrected Christ said to Mary “‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God”. Jesus was very clear, his Father (God) is our Father too. We are all his children. We lived with him as spirits before we were born and received a mortal, physical body.
As God is our Father, I can tell you now, he loves all of us. The good and the bad. A loving Father loves all his children, even those who disobey him. I have children of my own, and would I throw one into the fire because he didn’t do everything I asked of him? No. God will not throw any of his children into fire (hell), because he loves us all, unconditionally.
Again, I believe in a loving God – a God who loves all. You clearly do not.
As for your point on the Bible, it seems that you have the idea that simply because I do not interpret it the same way as you do, that I don’t believe it. You are wrong. I believe the Bible. As you can see, I know it – and can quote scriptures to back up my position. I however accept that people will interpret it differently. I do not claim that you do not believe in the Bible – as clearly you do – and I would suggest that you recognise that it is the same with me.
Hey bud if you try replying via email to your notifications of comments that might work
Dan,
You’re approaching the subject of God all wrong. You’re first imagining what God should be like to fit your idea of love and fatherliness, and then comparing your idea to the God revealed in Holy Scripture, and finding Him lacking. This is what the Bible calls idolatry–forming a god after ones own image. The alternative and proper course would be to come to God’s word (the Bible) as infallible, inerrant, and self-interpreting, to learn about God from Him in His Word, comparing Scripture with Scripture, and then to submit to and worship Him accordingly. Your approach is just not going to work. There is no morality, justice, or idea of love apart from what is derived from the character of that God who is revealed in the Holy Bible, who created all things including time, space, and the laws of the universe. It is becoming more and more evident that we believe in different gods, you and I. I hope you will agree.
The Scriptures you quoted on fatherhood are all, in their context, referring to His relationship with those He has adopted as His Children in Christ to whom “gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name,” Jn 1.13
I can explain the Scriptures you raised in context with the whole Bible. What I don’t want to do is to play “Bible ping pong” as if the Bible contradicted itself. It doesn’t. So we can look at the same passages one at a time instead of you throwing other passages at me without trying to understand what I quoted. It all came from the same God, so you have to accept all of it. The root of the problem is that you are cherry picking verses that you perceive to support your argument, and using the notion of “varying interpretations” as a cover for your disregard of what the Bible teaches as a whole.
Riley,
I appreciate your position, and that you interpret the scriptures differently to me. That’s fine. The same occurs throughout Christianity – which is why there are hundreds (if not thousands) of different churches with different ideas and teachings, all stemming from the same Bible.
You say I am trying to say what God should be like. Actually, I’m saying what he is – a God of love; our Eternal Heavenly Father. However, the point of this blog post – and one that you have agreed with – is your evangelical position. That is, a God who will condemn most of mankind to Hell – He will only save a very small minority. Many, many thousands of his creations (I call them children) will never have an opportunity to be saved. Condemned from birth. This is your interpretation of God.
The point of the blog remains. There are two key problems at the heart of evangelical beliefs. The belief that God hates most of his creations, and loves only a very small minority – a point you agree with – and the belief that God that placed us all into a position of sin (sin of Adam) with little hope of being saved – a point that you also accept, even if you don’t want to consider it that way.
For all others who read this blog, I urge you to learn more of God. To realise that this evangelical position is wrong. I encourage those who read this blog to come to the knowledge of a God who truly loves you. Who loves all mankind. There is hope for all.
Dan,
I object to you calling God’s just damnation of sinners forever, and the imputation of Adam’s sin to all his posterity naturally conceived, a “problem.” You ought not set yourself as a judge over God the Creator. As for your statement that, “there are hundreds (if not thousands) of different churches with different ideas and teachings, all stemming from the same Bible.” I utterly reject it as fallacious. There are many churches and individuals who have imported ideas and teachings from other sources, and sought to justify them using the Bible, instead of taking the Bible reverently as God’s Word. For those churches and individuals who, through careful study of the whole Bible, have sought to learn from God in it instead of reading private agendas into it, they have always had full agreement on the core doctrines of the faith revealed in it. This is because the Bible is sufficiently clear to teach everything necessary for salvation to anyone who studies it carefully in humble submission. I pray that you too would do so, and that through it the Holy Spirit would impart a saving faith to you, working a miracle in your heart which is humanly impossible through the means of the infallible Word.
Riley,
I appreciate your concern, but fear not, I’m already “saved” through the grace of Jesus Christ the Son of God, my Saviour. I also reiterate to you that I accept the Bible as the word of God.
Getting back to the topic however, you can object to my assessment as much as you like, but you haven’t objected to the points that I have made.
Ultimately these points are:
1) Many thousands will go to Hell who never had a chance to know the gospel of Christ. They had no chance to be saved, because they were sinners from birth. Unfortunately for them, God chose not to intervene and provide them with an opportunity for salvation.
Now you can reject my assessment of this, but you do agree with this part. What you don’t like is that I say this is just plain cruel, and demonstrates God’s hate for these people. You say he is perfectly justified. Your assessment differs from mine, but ultimately, the point remains the same.
2) God has placed every man and woman that has ever lived into a state of sin through birth. A birth that God forced on them.
That you agree with.. What you don’t agree with is me saying that God is responsible. You say it is Adam’s fault. Well, let me put it this way, if a man leaves a spilt drink on the wooden floor, and a Mother then (knowing that the liquid is there) goes and places her baby onto the spillage (thus the baby gets wet and stained from the liquid) who is at fault for the baby getting wet? The Man who made the error in the first place, or the Mother who then chose to put her baby in that state and force the baby to get wet?
In you view, it appears to be the man’s fault for spilling the drink…. and the baby’s fault for being wet. As far as I’m concerned, that’s ludicrous. It is the Mother at fault here for the baby being in a mess. In other words, it is God who placed us into a state of sin, knowing full well that the sin would prevent us from returning to his presence, and would place us on a journey to Hell. There’s no escaping the fact of the matter… the sin of Adam was placed on us by God. In this sense, I say he is the cause of this sin.
Now Riley, I have spoken plainly. It is clear for all to see. You dispute my assessment of the two points, but I don’t see you disputing the two points themselves.
*** Disclaimer to all others who read: The points made above are (in my assessment) made in accordance with how evangelicals portray God. I do not have a problem with God. As stated already, I do not believe that God is as described above. I believe in a God of love, who has provided a way for all his children to return to him again. The character of God as portrayed above is that taught according to evangelicals. ***
Dan,
I didn’t feel the need to respond to those points which you had substantially right, since I didn’t disagree with some of the things you said when you were summarizing my beliefs. But I will if you insist. God is not the Author of Sin. Sin has come into the world by His will, ordaining, and sovereign decree, in such a way that He is not its Author. He had a good purpose for ordaining Sin to come into the world, which He is working out over time until the end of the ages for His glory. He has a right to do with His creation as He pleases and no one may question Him because He is God. He is entirely just and righteous in all His ways. I don’t feel the need to defend or apologize for His will or works to you because He speaks for Himself; and He is entirely holy and just.
“1) Many thousands will go to Hell who never had a chance to know the gospel of Christ. They had no chance to be saved, because they were sinners from birth. Unfortunately for them, God chose not to intervene and provide them with an opportunity for salvation.”
Not thousands. Billions. Matthew 7:14 Yes, the only ones who will hear the gospel are the ones to whom God has chosen to send missionaries and evangelists. The rest, although they never have an opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel, will be punished for the sins that they’ve committed even against the knowledge they have. Their own consciences will accuse them on that day for suppressing the knowledge of God that they had from creation, in unrighteousness. They have all done that which even they knew was wrong. That God chose not to intervene is a truth. It is not an excuse for their sin. It does not leave them off the hook for the punishment they deserve. (Romans 1:18-2:16)
“2) God has placed every man and woman that has ever lived into a state of sin through birth. A birth that God forced on them.”
God does not create sinners. He creates the human body and soul, and it immediately becomes tainted with full depravity in sin from the moment of conception, passed by the hereditary connection with parents who are also sinners. The all-powerful God would be able to prevent this corruption from being passed down if he so willed. But it is according to His will that sin is passed down through natural generation and conception. It is a punishment from God, a sovereign decree on the human race for our having sinned in our father Adam. That’s because he is our representative in the covenant that God made with man at creation, our federal head. We sinned in him not consciously, because we did not yet exist, but representatively. God’s judgment on the human race for this sin is just, good and right. Every human being naturally conceived agrees and concurs with Adam’s sin by adding actual sins to the inherited original sin.
By this same representative principle that I referenced above, the Father made a new covenant with the Son, by which He represents all of His elect, keeping the covenant on their behalf as their representative in contrast to Adam who broke it for them. “As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” 1 Corinthians 15:22
For further reading on the Imputation of Adam’s Sin to all his naturally-conceived posterity, allow me to recommend an essay I wrote on the subject: http://www.angelfire.com/co/cadetfraas/SinnersinAdam.pdf
Daniel, you disagree with what I’ve said because you follow a different book, and you have a different god. My prayer is that the Triune God will sovereignly remove your obstinance against Him as He has revealed Himself in His Word. Until then, I wish you would stop claiming to be a Christian.
Riley, thank you for your honesty. Your most recent post has made it very clear that we both agree on what the evangelical position is, only that we don’t agree on how this reflects on the character of God.
I determine that this shows that the evangelical portrayal of God is one of hate and cruelty.. however you determine that this shows his grace and love.
We will of course continue to differ at this point, but at least the background is clear, and that was the purpose of my post.
It is now here for all readers to determine for themselves which one is correct.
Cheers
Dan,
It’s not up to readers to determine for themselves which one is correct. It’s up to all people everywhere to seek God as He has revealed Himself in the Holy Bible and submit to Him.
Also, you’re welcome! The truths that I expressed above are not something that I am shy on. Quite the contrary! I am trying to spread the word to everyone on these doctrines. It is my calling. I recently preached sermons on the topics of the Imputation of Adam’s Sin and God’s Justice in the Judgment of sinners at the church where I serve as pastor. God is now inviting all people everywhere to repent of their sin and turn to Jesus the God-man, the only Mediator between God and man. Through faith in Him, guilty sinners may be counted righteous in Him, reversing the curse inherited at conception. It is only by knowing this message of the utter holiness and severity of God’s just judgment against sinners that one may realize ones need for the Savior and truly embrace Him unto salvation.
Hey Dan mate did you see my comments? would be great to have some discussion sometime, i know how busy life can be so no rush.